tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6382255864661846735.post6218752854667267384..comments2024-02-24T08:45:36.112+00:00Comments on TheFatBigot Opines: I prefer to have one vote, like everyone elseTheFatBigothttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17255526385076528633noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6382255864661846735.post-44518372367050870232011-04-19T01:24:01.860+01:002011-04-19T01:24:01.860+01:00"To him it would be cynical manipulation to v..."To him it would be cynical manipulation to vote for others when there was only one person he felt was appropriate to represent his constituency."<br />Mr. FatBigot, there are plenty of people around who choose not to vote under the present system because they feel none of the candidates are adequate, Perhaps their frustration and disappointment is best evidenced by this graph:<br />http://www.ukpolitical.info/Turnout45.htm<br /><br />"A constant middling mash of compromise does not allow differing views to be put into practice and then judged."<br /><br />To some extent I agree, but I rate dramatic swings as more destructive.<br /><br />The graph in the above link does provide another reason why FPP (or FPTP) is a dog of a system though, why vote if you're in a constituency in which you know your vote won't make a difference? Under AV, or other more proportional voting systems, far fewer electors will feel their voting is a pointless waste of time.<br /><br />Andrew WAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6382255864661846735.post-70403129710745239012011-04-19T00:42:09.404+01:002011-04-19T00:42:09.404+01:00Mr Andrew, it is of course true that everyone has ...Mr Andrew, it is of course true that everyone has the option of using all their possible choices but those most likely to do so are, I suspect, those who are most politically savvy. As I said in the article, that is not something I find enticing. <br /><br />Mr A might well have chosen to make one choice only because he genuinely was not prepared to give any support to the other candidates. To him it would be cynical manipulation to vote for others when there was only one person he felt was appropriate to represent his constituency. Others might be generally of the same mind but choose to engage in cynical manipulation. Why should Mr A be excluded from the final result when he has acted according to his conscience? <br /><br />You might well be correct in saying that AV would produce less dramatic left-right or right-left swings on a change of government, to my mind that is a powerful argument against AV. A constant middling mash of compromise does not allow differing views to be put into practice and then judged.TheFatBigothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17255526385076528633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6382255864661846735.post-27251035424842501572011-04-18T09:04:50.984+01:002011-04-18T09:04:50.984+01:00Andrew W - I'm only day dreaming on that one, ...Andrew W - I'm only day dreaming on that one, I'm now sadly of the opinion there isn't an "honourable member" left anywhere in this blighted land.Barnacle Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17257546424880537005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6382255864661846735.post-56182315551664024672011-04-18T00:15:19.834+01:002011-04-18T00:15:19.834+01:00Barnacle Bill,
yeah, and there are plenty of democ...Barnacle Bill,<br />yeah, and there are plenty of democratic systems that would encourage government through individuals rather than parties, but to get to such a system would be a revolutionary change because parties would work against such a change.<br /><br />Andrew WAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6382255864661846735.post-38138005006014785052011-04-17T21:52:25.448+01:002011-04-17T21:52:25.448+01:00@ Andrew W
I think it might be better for all con...@ Andrew W<br /><br />I think it might be better for all concerned if we could just take the "party" out of politics, governing instead for the good of the country.Barnacle Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17257546424880537005noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6382255864661846735.post-80246411656474128962011-04-17T05:24:23.074+01:002011-04-17T05:24:23.074+01:00I agree with Mr. Wadsworth's way of looking at...I agree with Mr. Wadsworth's way of looking at it. <br />Unless I've sadly misunderstood the proposed system Mr. A and Mr. B both had the option of filling in further preferences on their voting papers, the fact that they elected not to do so is hardly the fault of the system, anymore than it would be unfair of the system to not have registered a vote for people who didn't ... vote, if people elect to have a vote in each and every round they can, all of them.<br /><br />"It is interesting to note that no commenter has yet suggested what benefits AV is meant to bring."<br /><br />Less dramatic Left-Right (or Right-Left) swings at each change of government.<br /><br />People and businesses find dramatic swings in policy destructive, in the modern world stability is an economic attribute.<br /><br />Andrew WAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6382255864661846735.post-72039077312234808632011-04-17T02:56:17.563+01:002011-04-17T02:56:17.563+01:00"Although your ballot paper might be shuffled..."Although your ballot paper might be shuffled from your first choice candidate's pile to your second choice etc, that is your one vote being shuffled around and in the final round it will be counted once."<br /><br />Nonsense. <br /><br />I've added an addendum to explain why.TheFatBigothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17255526385076528633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6382255864661846735.post-72469327622528208782011-04-16T22:58:46.861+01:002011-04-16T22:58:46.861+01:00That is why the Irish system works so well, that y...That is why the Irish system works so well, that you have to give votes to individuals, not to party lists.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6382255864661846735.post-54680778769362567692011-04-16T22:52:40.679+01:002011-04-16T22:52:40.679+01:00In New Zealand we changed from the Westminster sys...In New Zealand we changed from the Westminster system to Mixed Member Proportional (MMP) a few years ago, it's not too bad a system, we did have a prick in a centrist party causing problems initially in auctioning off his parliamentary votes to the two main parties, but after a couple of elections doing that he destroyed his credibility with voters and can now only dream about having those power trips.<br /><br />I think the biggest problem we now have with MMP is that, as a disaffected Labour MP recently described it, the top of the Labour Party list has turned into "a gaggle of gays and unionists".<br /><br />That is, people who might not have a lot of appeal to the man in the street get into Parliament without having to win voter approval because the list candidates and ranking are decided by the party hierarchy.<br /><br />It occurred to me a little while ago that this problem could be gotten around by giving "list" seats to the highest polling unsuccessful electorate candidates from each party, rather than having separate party lists.<br /><br />Andrew WAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6382255864661846735.post-56646113546985899802011-04-16T16:19:49.764+01:002011-04-16T16:19:49.764+01:00Totally agreed. Personally I would support a move ...Totally agreed. Personally I would support a move to the Irish system of STV in multi-member constituencies, but AV arguably delivers even less proportionality than FPTP and is likely to encourage mushy consensus politics. I'm no fan of the Greens or Caroline Lucas, but there's no doubt that she does represent a substantial strand of opinion in the country and she would not have won a Westminster seat under AV.Curmudgeonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02558747878308766840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6382255864661846735.post-54520706523240384572011-04-16T11:29:58.592+01:002011-04-16T11:29:58.592+01:00Can I add that I think the AV system is not a good...Can I add that I think the AV system is not a good choice for a sort of more proportional voting system for Britain and if, as I suspect, it gets thoroughly trashed in the vote on the 5th May, it'll serve the Lib Dems right for choosing such a poor option as an alternative to FPP.<br /><br />Andrew WAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6382255864661846735.post-74921893161025200092011-04-16T10:57:38.143+01:002011-04-16T10:57:38.143+01:00Your post is just rationalising in the defense of ...Your post is just rationalising in the defense of a voting system that benefits your politics, ie. not centrist.<br /><br />Regards,<br />Andrew W.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6382255864661846735.post-3464416409275667032011-04-16T09:56:08.572+01:002011-04-16T09:56:08.572+01:00"One thing I find genuinely exciting about a ..."One thing I find genuinely exciting about a general election is that I am in exactly the same position as a multi-millionnaire and tramp. We each have one vote."<br /><br />If that's your killer argument in favour of FPTP it is pretty weak, as exactly the same applies to AV. Under AV everybody has one vote... in each round of voting.<br /><br />Although your ballot paper might be shuffled from your first choice candidate's pile to your second choice etc, that is your one vote being shuffled around and in the final round it will be counted once.Mark Wadsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07733511175178098449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6382255864661846735.post-692457807719458142011-04-16T06:30:24.743+01:002011-04-16T06:30:24.743+01:00A well argued piece Mr. FB, your time au jardin ha...A well argued piece Mr. FB, your time au jardin has been well spent.<br />For myself, I feel this referendum on AV is too much like NuLabor's "Middle Way" which resulted in policies that tried to appeal to many with out really fixing the problem.<br />If it was about a significant change to our voting system I think we would have seen a blood bath on the Tory side by now.<br />In reality all the political parties know deep down it's a sop thrown out to appease us peasants.Barnacle Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17257546424880537005noreply@blogger.com